Comments on: Response to Rita Sallam of Oracle http://www.dbms2.com/2008/06/28/response-to-rita-sallam-of-oracle/ Choices in data management and analysis Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:22:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.3 By: Advice for some non-clients | DBMS2 -- DataBase Management System Services http://www.dbms2.com/2008/06/28/response-to-rita-sallam-of-oracle/#comment-178273 Advice for some non-clients | DBMS2 -- DataBase Management System Services Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:52:13 +0000 http://www.dbms2.com/?p=445#comment-178273 [...] making progress against your reputation for untruthfulness. Oh, I’ve dinged you for some past slip-ups, but on the whole they’ve been no worse than other vendors.’ But recently you pulled a [...] [...] making progress against your reputation for untruthfulness. Oh, I’ve dinged you for some past slip-ups, but on the whole they’ve been no worse than other vendors.’ But recently you pulled a [...]

]]> By: Winter Corporation on Exadata | DBMS2 -- DataBase Management System Services http://www.dbms2.com/2008/06/28/response-to-rita-sallam-of-oracle/#comment-109142 Winter Corporation on Exadata | DBMS2 -- DataBase Management System Services Wed, 04 Feb 2009 01:54:22 +0000 http://www.dbms2.com/?p=445#comment-109142 [...] at least since Aberdeen pulled back from the “You pay; we say” business — is Winter Corporation’s list of large data warehouses. (Failings include that it only lists warehouses run by software from certain vendors, primarily [...] [...] at least since Aberdeen pulled back from the “You pay; we say” business — is Winter Corporation’s list of large data warehouses. (Failings include that it only lists warehouses run by software from certain vendors, primarily [...]

]]> By: Infology.Ru » Blog Archive » Кадры дня - Oracle Exadata и комплекс для хранилищ данных от Oracle http://www.dbms2.com/2008/06/28/response-to-rita-sallam-of-oracle/#comment-98042 Infology.Ru » Blog Archive » Кадры дня - Oracle Exadata и комплекс для хранилищ данных от Oracle Sat, 27 Sep 2008 08:40:55 +0000 http://www.dbms2.com/?p=445#comment-98042 [...] долгих отрицаний, Oracle наконец признал, что работа с объёмами, [...] [...] долгих отрицаний, Oracle наконец признал, что работа с объёмами, [...]

]]> By: Oracle Exadata and Oracle data warehouse appliance sound bites | DBMS2 -- DataBase Management System Services http://www.dbms2.com/2008/06/28/response-to-rita-sallam-of-oracle/#comment-97950 Oracle Exadata and Oracle data warehouse appliance sound bites | DBMS2 -- DataBase Management System Services Thu, 25 Sep 2008 18:10:08 +0000 http://www.dbms2.com/?p=445#comment-97950 [...] long denying it, Oracle has finally admitted that putting more than 10 TB on Oracle had been an extremely [...] [...] long denying it, Oracle has finally admitted that putting more than 10 TB on Oracle had been an extremely [...]

]]> By: Infology.Ru » Blog Archive » Как Оракл будет спасать свой бизнес хранилищ данных? http://www.dbms2.com/2008/06/28/response-to-rita-sallam-of-oracle/#comment-94088 Infology.Ru » Blog Archive » Как Оракл будет спасать свой бизнес хранилищ данных? Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:01:37 +0000 http://www.dbms2.com/?p=445#comment-94088 [...] Response to Rita Sallam of Oracle [...] [...] Response to Rita Sallam of Oracle [...]

]]> By: Infology.Ru » Blog Archive » Microsoft покупает DATAllegro http://www.dbms2.com/2008/06/28/response-to-rita-sallam-of-oracle/#comment-94086 Infology.Ru » Blog Archive » Microsoft покупает DATAllegro Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:58:50 +0000 http://www.dbms2.com/?p=445#comment-94086 [...] Why Oracle’s counterarguments don’t hold water [...] [...] Why Oracle’s counterarguments don’t hold water [...]

]]> By: Stuart Frost http://www.dbms2.com/2008/06/28/response-to-rita-sallam-of-oracle/#comment-89355 Stuart Frost Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:25:42 +0000 http://www.dbms2.com/?p=445#comment-89355 Curt, Great post! You surpassed even your usual high standards and brightened my Monday morning. One thing the major vendors don't like to be reminded of wrt TPC-H is that they've spent millions of dollars over several years to optimize their DBMS for those particular queries. The end result is that TPC-H just isn't representative of any real world installation. Even the TPC regards TPC-H as obsolete and has a major refresh (TPC-DS) in the works. The problem with that is the major vendors are spending huge amounts of time and effort to ensure it suits their architectures over those of the newer vendors. The only way to really judge a DW platform is to run a PoC with the customer's own data and queries. Stuart Frost CEO, DATAllegro Curt,

Great post! You surpassed even your usual high standards and brightened my Monday morning.

One thing the major vendors don’t like to be reminded of wrt TPC-H is that they’ve spent millions of dollars over several years to optimize their DBMS for those particular queries.

The end result is that TPC-H just isn’t representative of any real world installation. Even the TPC regards TPC-H as obsolete and has a major refresh (TPC-DS) in the works. The problem with that is the major vendors are spending huge amounts of time and effort to ensure it suits their architectures over those of the newer vendors.

The only way to really judge a DW platform is to run a PoC with the customer’s own data and queries.

Stuart Frost
CEO, DATAllegro

]]> By: Curt Monash http://www.dbms2.com/2008/06/28/response-to-rita-sallam-of-oracle/#comment-89237 Curt Monash Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:53:43 +0000 http://www.dbms2.com/?p=445#comment-89237 And you're right, to my knowledge, about Netezza. I'm sure they evaluated participating, but I don't recall them getting particularly far along. CAM And you’re right, to my knowledge, about Netezza. I’m sure they evaluated participating, but I don’t recall them getting particularly far along.

CAM

]]> By: Curt Monash http://www.dbms2.com/2008/06/28/response-to-rita-sallam-of-oracle/#comment-89234 Curt Monash Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:47:20 +0000 http://www.dbms2.com/?p=445#comment-89234 Serge, DB2 clearly has a significant warehousing presence somewhere, although I run across it less often than the numbers would suggest. As for concurrency -- yep, the new guys are still improving significantly every release. But if I have 10X+ the single-query performance, I don't need to reduce my multi-user penalty quite as low as I do if my base speed is nothing to write home about. Serge,

DB2 clearly has a significant warehousing presence somewhere, although I run across it less often than the numbers would suggest.

As for concurrency — yep, the new guys are still improving significantly every release. But if I have 10X+ the single-query performance, I don’t need to reduce my multi-user penalty quite as low as I do if my base speed is nothing to write home about.

]]> By: Serge Rielau http://www.dbms2.com/2008/06/28/response-to-rita-sallam-of-oracle/#comment-89224 Serge Rielau Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:31:38 +0000 http://www.dbms2.com/?p=445#comment-89224 Some comments: * Checking out TPC-H I find that Exasol seems to be very active now in the lower end. So it's not true that TPC-H is a MS SQL Server, Oracle, IBM private party. * In the thread you point to comments were made that NETEZZA has pulled out of TPC-H. I was unaware that they had ever pulled in to begin with... * Perhaps you should ask Jeff Jones to discuss measurable marketshare numbers between Teradata and DB2 Warehousing. The result might surprise you. The spinning of of Teradata was quite revealing. * I did find it fascinating that Oracle points to TPC-H to shore up RAC scalability claims as it is really rarely used in that benchmark and the bigger the system the less so. E.g. the 30TB system is not RAC. * I see TPC-H as one of those benchmarks where the numbers say less than non having any. If a system is any good it should "at least" be able to do decent TPC-H. So if a company doesn't show up it means they are either: Too small to fund (or get it funded by a hardware vendor) or just can't. Either way raises questions for customers. It's a bit like claiming the fastest swimmers but never showing up at the Olympics. * From my very own experience I can assert that DB2 wins most warehouse engagements where we are allowed to participate via proof of concepts. Vendors tend to come to DB2 after they fail with their default Oracle choice carried over from their OLTP deployments. W.r.t. NETEZZA the moment of truth tends to be multi-user. Al that fast table-scanning doesn't help when users compete for the spindles/FPGA. Just my two cents Serge Rielau DB2 Benchmark and Solutions Development IBM Toronto Lab Some comments:
* Checking out TPC-H I find that Exasol seems to be very active now in the lower end. So it’s not true that TPC-H is a MS SQL Server, Oracle, IBM private party.
* In the thread you point to comments were made that NETEZZA has pulled out of TPC-H. I was unaware that they had ever pulled in to begin with…
* Perhaps you should ask Jeff Jones to discuss measurable marketshare numbers between Teradata and DB2 Warehousing. The result might surprise you.
The spinning of of Teradata was quite revealing.
* I did find it fascinating that Oracle points to TPC-H to shore up RAC scalability claims as it is really rarely used in that benchmark and the bigger the system the less so. E.g. the 30TB system is not RAC.
* I see TPC-H as one of those benchmarks where the numbers say less than non having any.
If a system is any good it should “at least” be able to do decent TPC-H. So if a company doesn’t show up it means they are either: Too small to fund (or get it funded by a hardware vendor) or just can’t. Either way raises questions for customers.
It’s a bit like claiming the fastest swimmers but never showing up at the Olympics.
* From my very own experience I can assert that DB2 wins most warehouse engagements where we are allowed to participate via proof of concepts. Vendors tend to come to DB2 after they fail with their default Oracle choice carried over from their OLTP deployments.
W.r.t. NETEZZA the moment of truth tends to be multi-user. Al that fast table-scanning doesn’t help when users compete for the spindles/FPGA.

Just my two cents
Serge Rielau
DB2 Benchmark and Solutions Development
IBM Toronto Lab

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