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	<title>Comments on: SANs vs. DAS in MPP data warehousing</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.dbms2.com/2008/09/06/sans-vs-das-in-mpp-data-warehousing/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.dbms2.com/2008/09/06/sans-vs-das-in-mpp-data-warehousing/</link>
	<description>Choices in data management and analysis</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Curt Monash</title>
		<link>http://www.dbms2.com/2008/09/06/sans-vs-das-in-mpp-data-warehousing/#comment-191264</link>
		<dc:creator>Curt Monash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Nov 2010 02:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dbms2.com/?p=524#comment-191264</guid>
		<description>Eric,

As you can see at the top of the blog, I haven&#039;t been keeping up with my briefings for the past few weeks due to some personal issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric,</p>
<p>As you can see at the top of the blog, I haven&#8217;t been keeping up with my briefings for the past few weeks due to some personal issues.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.dbms2.com/2008/09/06/sans-vs-das-in-mpp-data-warehousing/#comment-191235</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Nov 2010 17:29:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dbms2.com/?p=524#comment-191235</guid>
		<description>Curt, 

Any update from the SAN vendors EMC/NetApp/HP/IBM regarding specialized hardware/firmware for database?

You mentioned Greenplum, which is a recent acquisition. Even ORACLE praised Netezza&#039;s innovation during yesterday&#039;s EXADATA CUSTOMER FORUM. It will have better adoption if such storage server module is coming from SAN vendor. Is there any progress in your radar?

Regards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curt, </p>
<p>Any update from the SAN vendors EMC/NetApp/HP/IBM regarding specialized hardware/firmware for database?</p>
<p>You mentioned Greenplum, which is a recent acquisition. Even ORACLE praised Netezza&#8217;s innovation during yesterday&#8217;s EXADATA CUSTOMER FORUM. It will have better adoption if such storage server module is coming from SAN vendor. Is there any progress in your radar?</p>
<p>Regards.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Curt Monash</title>
		<link>http://www.dbms2.com/2008/09/06/sans-vs-das-in-mpp-data-warehousing/#comment-191119</link>
		<dc:creator>Curt Monash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Nov 2010 15:12:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dbms2.com/?p=524#comment-191119</guid>
		<description>And then there&#039;s the EMC/Greenplum approach, in which you put your primary copy of the data on DAS, and the mirror on the SAN.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And then there&#8217;s the EMC/Greenplum approach, in which you put your primary copy of the data on DAS, and the mirror on the SAN.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.dbms2.com/2008/09/06/sans-vs-das-in-mpp-data-warehousing/#comment-191059</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Nov 2010 06:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dbms2.com/?p=524#comment-191059</guid>
		<description>After about 2 years, when we revisit this topic, I can&#039;t helping thinking that DAS (SAS/SATA) is still making more sense in DW environment.

SAN is highly virtualized and easier to expand &amp; manage. But DW storage is rarely shared with other applications once it grows beyond 40TB. To provide the same 8 GigaBytes/Sec or 40 GigaBytes/Sec to the database server layer, SAN will have to cost a lot more than those database-aware / database-optimized DAS storage solution.

Exadata V2 X2-8 is a compelling sample. The main vendor finally acknowledges the value of DAS solution for DW. Its storage server is very similar to Netezza&#039;s FPGA I/O boards. SAN still manages 512-byte sectors, while Exadata deals with 1-MegaBytes blocks, and Netezza handles 3-Megabytes blocks respectively as the smallest storage unit. Imagine how much overhead the SAN&#039;s ASIC chipset have to assemble the 0.5KB blocks into 16KB or 32KB db blocks and return them via the fiber fabric. Bying saving the $$$ on expensive hardware RAID controller, fiber switch, fiber HBA... we can actually invest some of the savings to SSD cache, Infiniband, and big-block-optimized compression modules; therefore the overall I/O can be greatly improved for less. The only disadvantage is that such optimization has not no industry standard, so the storage hardware is tightly coupled with vendor&#039;s database engine, the only way to share these storage is via application or network layer API.

As the gap between DW demands and SAN cost is growing wider, the software-based and even hardware-based storage server for database engine will gain more ground. Netezza broke the ground, Oracle finally followed; Teradata and IBM are still SAN-based, but I won&#039;t be surprised if Teradata pushes AMP down to dedicated I/O hardware with DAS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After about 2 years, when we revisit this topic, I can&#8217;t helping thinking that DAS (SAS/SATA) is still making more sense in DW environment.</p>
<p>SAN is highly virtualized and easier to expand &amp; manage. But DW storage is rarely shared with other applications once it grows beyond 40TB. To provide the same 8 GigaBytes/Sec or 40 GigaBytes/Sec to the database server layer, SAN will have to cost a lot more than those database-aware / database-optimized DAS storage solution.</p>
<p>Exadata V2 X2-8 is a compelling sample. The main vendor finally acknowledges the value of DAS solution for DW. Its storage server is very similar to Netezza&#8217;s FPGA I/O boards. SAN still manages 512-byte sectors, while Exadata deals with 1-MegaBytes blocks, and Netezza handles 3-Megabytes blocks respectively as the smallest storage unit. Imagine how much overhead the SAN&#8217;s ASIC chipset have to assemble the 0.5KB blocks into 16KB or 32KB db blocks and return them via the fiber fabric. Bying saving the $$$ on expensive hardware RAID controller, fiber switch, fiber HBA&#8230; we can actually invest some of the savings to SSD cache, Infiniband, and big-block-optimized compression modules; therefore the overall I/O can be greatly improved for less. The only disadvantage is that such optimization has not no industry standard, so the storage hardware is tightly coupled with vendor&#8217;s database engine, the only way to share these storage is via application or network layer API.</p>
<p>As the gap between DW demands and SAN cost is growing wider, the software-based and even hardware-based storage server for database engine will gain more ground. Netezza broke the ground, Oracle finally followed; Teradata and IBM are still SAN-based, but I won&#8217;t be surprised if Teradata pushes AMP down to dedicated I/O hardware with DAS.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.dbms2.com/2008/09/06/sans-vs-das-in-mpp-data-warehousing/#comment-123148</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 11:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dbms2.com/?p=524#comment-123148</guid>
		<description>The most important thing IMHO is cost per MB/s of throughput. When you factor in how much it&#039;ll cost you, SAN doesn&#039;t get a look-in. I currently work on a system with total sequential throughput of 3 GigaBYTES per second which cost around USD 35,000. We costed out the same throughput on SANs - it would have worked out as 8 times more expensive.

You also can&#039;t say that you&#039;ll use enterprise infrastructure to deliver the performance without compromising performance service levels -- after all, as soon as you use the Enterprise SAN, you&#039;ve now got contention on fabric switches and any other shared components.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most important thing IMHO is cost per MB/s of throughput. When you factor in how much it&#8217;ll cost you, SAN doesn&#8217;t get a look-in. I currently work on a system with total sequential throughput of 3 GigaBYTES per second which cost around USD 35,000. We costed out the same throughput on SANs &#8211; it would have worked out as 8 times more expensive.</p>
<p>You also can&#8217;t say that you&#8217;ll use enterprise infrastructure to deliver the performance without compromising performance service levels &#8212; after all, as soon as you use the Enterprise SAN, you&#8217;ve now got contention on fabric switches and any other shared components.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: shshme</title>
		<link>http://www.dbms2.com/2008/09/06/sans-vs-das-in-mpp-data-warehousing/#comment-122306</link>
		<dc:creator>shshme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 09:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dbms2.com/?p=524#comment-122306</guid>
		<description>There is a good Cost Comparison at the site link above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a good Cost Comparison at the site link above.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Infology.Ru &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Exadata: Oracle наконец отвечает бросившим вызов в области хранилищ данных</title>
		<link>http://www.dbms2.com/2008/09/06/sans-vs-das-in-mpp-data-warehousing/#comment-98925</link>
		<dc:creator>Infology.Ru &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Exadata: Oracle наконец отвечает бросившим вызов в области хранилищ данных</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 20:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dbms2.com/?p=524#comment-98925</guid>
		<description>[...] SANs vs. DAS in MPP data warehousing [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] SANs vs. DAS in MPP data warehousing [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Exadata and Oracle Database Machine parallelization clarified &#124; DBMS2 -- DataBase Management System Services</title>
		<link>http://www.dbms2.com/2008/09/06/sans-vs-das-in-mpp-data-warehousing/#comment-98136</link>
		<dc:creator>Exadata and Oracle Database Machine parallelization clarified &#124; DBMS2 -- DataBase Management System Services</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 06:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dbms2.com/?p=524#comment-98136</guid>
		<description>[...] that follows this optimal storage-facing parallelization strategy. Actually, opinions differ as to whether rigid coupling of processors to specific disks is actually necessary. But after supporting one extreme (the disk part of shared-everything), Oracle with Exadata has [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that follows this optimal storage-facing parallelization strategy. Actually, opinions differ as to whether rigid coupling of processors to specific disks is actually necessary. But after supporting one extreme (the disk part of shared-everything), Oracle with Exadata has [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Doug's Oracle Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.dbms2.com/2008/09/06/sans-vs-das-in-mpp-data-warehousing/#comment-97951</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug's Oracle Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 18:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dbms2.com/?p=524#comment-97951</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Day 4 - Grumpy Old Man...&lt;/strong&gt;


Well, I was starting to worry that I was completely out of step with the blogosphere, because finally a keynote presentation worth writing about and no-one seems keen, but I&#039;ve only just noticed this quote in Pete Scott&#039;s blog posting.&quot;For str...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Day 4 &#8211; Grumpy Old Man&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Well, I was starting to worry that I was completely out of step with the blogosphere, because finally a keynote presentation worth writing about and no-one seems keen, but I&#8217;ve only just noticed this quote in Pete Scott&#8217;s blog posting.&quot;For str&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Exadata: Oracle finally answers the data warehouse challengers &#124; DBMS2 -- DataBase Management System Services</title>
		<link>http://www.dbms2.com/2008/09/06/sans-vs-das-in-mpp-data-warehousing/#comment-97906</link>
		<dc:creator>Exadata: Oracle finally answers the data warehouse challengers &#124; DBMS2 -- DataBase Management System Services</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 00:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dbms2.com/?p=524#comment-97906</guid>
		<description>[...] SANs vs. DAS in MPP data warehousing [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] SANs vs. DAS in MPP data warehousing [...]</p>
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